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	<title>Comments on: A .38 Special Cat Sneeze Load</title>
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	<description>Outdoors, hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, survival, skill, guns, knives, articles, videos, bush craft, field craft, self defense, wilderness, manly skills, outdoor news, military, police, wisdom, outdoor living, celebrity, great quotes, manly arts</description>
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		<title>By: Josenilo M. Reoma</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-2364</link>
		<dc:creator>Josenilo M. Reoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>can a AR 15 car rifle be licensed? how much would be the load grain?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>can a AR 15 car rifle be licensed? how much would be the load grain?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Humphreville</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1926</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Humphreville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ed has done some outstanding work in this area and as a result I have built a 358 Winchester w/ 26&quot; barrel.  Getting ready to order a 300 Gr. bullet Ed designed as well.  Already know the rifle is going to shoot well based on another bullet I have tested but I think Ed&#039;s design is the way to go here.  I am going to have it made as a nose pour with two different meplat sizes for use in long range and a wider flat nose for hunting.
I have known Ed about 25 years and he has always been at the forefront with unique work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed has done some outstanding work in this area and as a result I have built a 358 Winchester w/ 26&#8243; barrel.  Getting ready to order a 300 Gr. bullet Ed designed as well.  Already know the rifle is going to shoot well based on another bullet I have tested but I think Ed&#8217;s design is the way to go here.  I am going to have it made as a nose pour with two different meplat sizes for use in long range and a wider flat nose for hunting.<br />
I have known Ed about 25 years and he has always been at the forefront with unique work.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Harris</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1881</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A longer barrel IS noticely quieter. But tradeoffs are that a very long barrel is less handy to carry, less quick to the shot and increases the risk of sticking a bullet in the barrel.  While the risk of a bullet-in-bore (BIB) is greatly reduced by using lubricated lead bullets (because bore drag is reduced), the chance of an occasional rare BIB obstruction is not entirely eliminated.  

In my 24-inch Marlin Cowboy II standard-pressure (non +P) jacketed bullet .38 Special loads heavier than 125 grains rarely, but occasionally fail to leave the barrel.  The Vietnam-era Ball .38 Special M41 (130-gr. FMJ) cartridge and its current commercial equivalents are particularly risky in this respect. BIB malfunctions are well documented firing M41 Ball in M15 revolvers with cylinder gap of larger than 0.008&quot;. 

In my experience using lubricated lead bullets in the .38 Special, the NEI #161A (190-grain) flatnose is well stabilized at low subsonic velocities with a twist of rifling as slow as 20 inches. http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
This bullet has a large meplat (flat nose) which gives very good results on game. When well cast and properly loaded it is capable of averaging about 2 inches at 100 yards over a long series of 5-shot groups from a single-shot rifle with Green Mountain 20-inch-twist barrel with .38 AMU-type chamber and Unertl scope. Ballistic uniformity is acceptable using current Alliant Bullseye with charges as light as 2.4 grains (26 inch rifle velocity about 800 f.p.s.) but I do not recommend further reductions.  Do not exceed 3.0 grains of Bullseye with a 190 grain lubricated lead bullet in .38 Special cases for standard pressure, or 3.5 grains for +P (26 inch rifle velocity about 950 f.p.s.).  In .357 Magnum brass at an overall cartridge length of 1.58&quot; best accuracy was obtained with a charge of 4.2-4.3 grs. of Bullseye adjusted to obtain 1050 +/- 30 f.p.s.   

I have also experimented a great deal with a long-barreled .45 ACP rifle which started with a 32 inch barrel. almost immediately I stuck an M1911 Ball 230-gr. jacketed bullet in the barrel about 5 inches from the muzzle.  I cut off and recrowned the barrel at 25 inches and have been satisfied with its low noise at that length. I can now shoot either GI hardball or equivalent handloads with either jacketed or lubricated lead bullets and have not stuck another bullet in the barrel as long as I used full-charge ammunition which approximated factory service velocities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A longer barrel IS noticely quieter. But tradeoffs are that a very long barrel is less handy to carry, less quick to the shot and increases the risk of sticking a bullet in the barrel.  While the risk of a bullet-in-bore (BIB) is greatly reduced by using lubricated lead bullets (because bore drag is reduced), the chance of an occasional rare BIB obstruction is not entirely eliminated.  </p>
<p>In my 24-inch Marlin Cowboy II standard-pressure (non +P) jacketed bullet .38 Special loads heavier than 125 grains rarely, but occasionally fail to leave the barrel.  The Vietnam-era Ball .38 Special M41 (130-gr. FMJ) cartridge and its current commercial equivalents are particularly risky in this respect. BIB malfunctions are well documented firing M41 Ball in M15 revolvers with cylinder gap of larger than 0.008&#8243;. </p>
<p>In my experience using lubricated lead bullets in the .38 Special, the NEI #161A (190-grain) flatnose is well stabilized at low subsonic velocities with a twist of rifling as slow as 20 inches. <a href="http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html</a><br />
This bullet has a large meplat (flat nose) which gives very good results on game. When well cast and properly loaded it is capable of averaging about 2 inches at 100 yards over a long series of 5-shot groups from a single-shot rifle with Green Mountain 20-inch-twist barrel with .38 AMU-type chamber and Unertl scope. Ballistic uniformity is acceptable using current Alliant Bullseye with charges as light as 2.4 grains (26 inch rifle velocity about 800 f.p.s.) but I do not recommend further reductions.  Do not exceed 3.0 grains of Bullseye with a 190 grain lubricated lead bullet in .38 Special cases for standard pressure, or 3.5 grains for +P (26 inch rifle velocity about 950 f.p.s.).  In .357 Magnum brass at an overall cartridge length of 1.58&#8243; best accuracy was obtained with a charge of 4.2-4.3 grs. of Bullseye adjusted to obtain 1050 +/- 30 f.p.s.   </p>
<p>I have also experimented a great deal with a long-barreled .45 ACP rifle which started with a 32 inch barrel. almost immediately I stuck an M1911 Ball 230-gr. jacketed bullet in the barrel about 5 inches from the muzzle.  I cut off and recrowned the barrel at 25 inches and have been satisfied with its low noise at that length. I can now shoot either GI hardball or equivalent handloads with either jacketed or lubricated lead bullets and have not stuck another bullet in the barrel as long as I used full-charge ammunition which approximated factory service velocities.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach Williams</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1876</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142#comment-1876</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m interested in working up a .38 Special load/rifle combo designed to push a relatively heavy bullet around 900fps as quietly as possible (without suppression).  I&#039;ve always heard that the longer the barrel, the quieter the shot.  I can get a barrel made with a 1:12 twist ratio out to 40+&quot;.  Is a bullet leaving a 40+&quot; barrel at 850-900fps going to be noticeably quieter than a bullet leaving a 24&quot; barrel at the same speed?  Can anyone with experience on barrel length and subsonic loads give me advice?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested in working up a .38 Special load/rifle combo designed to push a relatively heavy bullet around 900fps as quietly as possible (without suppression).  I&#8217;ve always heard that the longer the barrel, the quieter the shot.  I can get a barrel made with a 1:12 twist ratio out to 40+&#8221;.  Is a bullet leaving a 40+&#8221; barrel at 850-900fps going to be noticeably quieter than a bullet leaving a 24&#8243; barrel at the same speed?  Can anyone with experience on barrel length and subsonic loads give me advice?</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Darnell</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1827</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Darnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142#comment-1827</guid>
		<description>Its been well over twenty years since I last used this load.

It was 9mm case loaded with a Hornady 158gr lead semi-wadcutter and 1 grains of Bullseye. This was my plinking round for my S&amp;W Model 59. I also drilled the flash holes out (but only slightly larger than the original hole) just to have some uniformity in the cases I used. It reliably cycled the action and accuracy was good for the 25 yards of the target range. I did not do any serious testing with it, just plinking for fun.

Use this load with caution in autos, as the load may have to be fine-tuned for each handgun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its been well over twenty years since I last used this load.</p>
<p>It was 9mm case loaded with a Hornady 158gr lead semi-wadcutter and 1 grains of Bullseye. This was my plinking round for my S&amp;W Model 59. I also drilled the flash holes out (but only slightly larger than the original hole) just to have some uniformity in the cases I used. It reliably cycled the action and accuracy was good for the 25 yards of the target range. I did not do any serious testing with it, just plinking for fun.</p>
<p>Use this load with caution in autos, as the load may have to be fine-tuned for each handgun.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Harris</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1664</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Correction, the .455 Webley Manstopper bullet was designated as the Mk. III, this reference also has a picture:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/455/introto455.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction, the .455 Webley Manstopper bullet was designated as the Mk. III, this reference also has a picture:</p>
<p><a href="http://cartridgecollectors.org/455/introto455.htm" rel="nofollow">http://cartridgecollectors.org/455/introto455.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ed Harris</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1663</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142#comment-1663</guid>
		<description>Factory soft-swaged hollow-based 148-gr. wadcutters are not  stable when fired backwards. They yaw beyond very short range so that accuracy is poor beyond &quot;across the bar room floor&quot; distances.  

At low subsonic velocities the most effective bullet is a flat nose with large meplat. This gives maximum crush cavity diameter with deep penetration.  A bullet of .40 cal. or larger, weighing 200 grains or more, at about 900-1000 f.ps. will perforate through a deer from any angle. 

It is difficult to get reliable expansion with conventional handgun bullets below about 850 f.p.s.  At low subsonic velocities from 750 to about 1000 f.p.s. a large flat nose having a cup point of a diameter cavity about 0.6 of the meplat diameter as deep as the opening with angled sides works  well, as long as the bullet is not harder than 10-11BHN.  An alloy of 1:25 tin/lead or 50-50 wheelweights and plumber&#039;s lead is about right.  Pre-1900 .455 Mk. II Webley &quot;Manstopper Bullets&quot; were of this design, formed of nearly pure soft lead, and expanded very well.  

I have had great success using long-barreled .45 ACP rifles  shooting deer in settled areas for population and crop damage control. With a long enough barrel no suppressor is needed. For lowest noise the barrel length should be 24 inches or more. With a barrel longer than 28 inches you are more likely to stick a bullet in the barrel with a light load. Best accuracy is obtained with rifling having 24 to 28 inches per turn.  

Popular .45 Colt lever-action rifles chambered for the .45 Colt are limited by the .45 Colt cartridge which results in excessive airspace in the case and sloppy blackpowder chamber dimensioons which are not conducive to best accuracy. I had my Marlin 1894 Cowboy converted to fire .45 ACP, setting the barrel back, rechambering and reworking the lifter. It now has a 22&quot; barrel, holds 13 .45 ACP rounds and shoots 2 inch groups at 50 yards. Using common factory-loaded 230-grain personal defense loads with jacketed hollow-point bullets velocity is about 900 f.p.s., only slightly more than when the same ammunition is fired in a handgun.  Increased bore drag of the jacketed bullets fired in a rifle length barrel defeats most of the potential velocity gain. Lubricated lead bullets reliably exit the bore down to about 800 f.p.s. and can be driven to about 1000 f.p.s. from the rifle within normal limits of chamber pressure.  From a The peak pressure decibel noise level of the Marlin is 85dB when measured at 1 meter from the muzzle. Another rifle I have with 25 inch barrel shows a 3dB reduction for the extra 3 inches of tube.  Expected accuracy of the best .45 ACP ammunition is about 2-3 inches for 5-shot groups at 50 yards and in proportion at longer ranges.  

For my culling operations I use a 250-gr. cup-point bullet cast of pure lead and 4.2 grains fo Bullseye for abouit 900 f.p.s.  http://www.hollowpointmold.com/pictures/?category=Cramer+style+molds&amp;picture=561#561

To obtain similar performance in a long barreled .44 Magnum or .45 Colt cowboy rifle try loading a soft-lead 240-270 grain flatnosed bullet with about 5 grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder you have lying around.  Bullseye, 231, Unique, SR-7625, PB, Red Dot, 700-X will all work.  Keep the velocity below 1000 f.p.s. for lowest noise, but do not go below 850 f.p.s. with jacketed bullets or 800 f.p.s. with lubricated lead ones to avoid sticking a bullet in the barrel. The report is more like a muffled &quot;pop~!&quot; than a gun going off.  

If you want hollow-point bullets that work you will need to cast your own. The web link where I got my mold will be happy to modify a mould for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Factory soft-swaged hollow-based 148-gr. wadcutters are not  stable when fired backwards. They yaw beyond very short range so that accuracy is poor beyond &#8220;across the bar room floor&#8221; distances.  </p>
<p>At low subsonic velocities the most effective bullet is a flat nose with large meplat. This gives maximum crush cavity diameter with deep penetration.  A bullet of .40 cal. or larger, weighing 200 grains or more, at about 900-1000 f.ps. will perforate through a deer from any angle. </p>
<p>It is difficult to get reliable expansion with conventional handgun bullets below about 850 f.p.s.  At low subsonic velocities from 750 to about 1000 f.p.s. a large flat nose having a cup point of a diameter cavity about 0.6 of the meplat diameter as deep as the opening with angled sides works  well, as long as the bullet is not harder than 10-11BHN.  An alloy of 1:25 tin/lead or 50-50 wheelweights and plumber&#8217;s lead is about right.  Pre-1900 .455 Mk. II Webley &#8220;Manstopper Bullets&#8221; were of this design, formed of nearly pure soft lead, and expanded very well.  </p>
<p>I have had great success using long-barreled .45 ACP rifles  shooting deer in settled areas for population and crop damage control. With a long enough barrel no suppressor is needed. For lowest noise the barrel length should be 24 inches or more. With a barrel longer than 28 inches you are more likely to stick a bullet in the barrel with a light load. Best accuracy is obtained with rifling having 24 to 28 inches per turn.  </p>
<p>Popular .45 Colt lever-action rifles chambered for the .45 Colt are limited by the .45 Colt cartridge which results in excessive airspace in the case and sloppy blackpowder chamber dimensioons which are not conducive to best accuracy. I had my Marlin 1894 Cowboy converted to fire .45 ACP, setting the barrel back, rechambering and reworking the lifter. It now has a 22&#8243; barrel, holds 13 .45 ACP rounds and shoots 2 inch groups at 50 yards. Using common factory-loaded 230-grain personal defense loads with jacketed hollow-point bullets velocity is about 900 f.p.s., only slightly more than when the same ammunition is fired in a handgun.  Increased bore drag of the jacketed bullets fired in a rifle length barrel defeats most of the potential velocity gain. Lubricated lead bullets reliably exit the bore down to about 800 f.p.s. and can be driven to about 1000 f.p.s. from the rifle within normal limits of chamber pressure.  From a The peak pressure decibel noise level of the Marlin is 85dB when measured at 1 meter from the muzzle. Another rifle I have with 25 inch barrel shows a 3dB reduction for the extra 3 inches of tube.  Expected accuracy of the best .45 ACP ammunition is about 2-3 inches for 5-shot groups at 50 yards and in proportion at longer ranges.  </p>
<p>For my culling operations I use a 250-gr. cup-point bullet cast of pure lead and 4.2 grains fo Bullseye for abouit 900 f.p.s.  <a href="http://www.hollowpointmold.com/pictures/?category=Cramer+style+molds&amp;picture=561#561" rel="nofollow">http://www.hollowpointmold.com/pictures/?category=Cramer+style+molds&amp;picture=561#561</a></p>
<p>To obtain similar performance in a long barreled .44 Magnum or .45 Colt cowboy rifle try loading a soft-lead 240-270 grain flatnosed bullet with about 5 grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder you have lying around.  Bullseye, 231, Unique, SR-7625, PB, Red Dot, 700-X will all work.  Keep the velocity below 1000 f.p.s. for lowest noise, but do not go below 850 f.p.s. with jacketed bullets or 800 f.p.s. with lubricated lead ones to avoid sticking a bullet in the barrel. The report is more like a muffled &#8220;pop~!&#8221; than a gun going off.  </p>
<p>If you want hollow-point bullets that work you will need to cast your own. The web link where I got my mold will be happy to modify a mould for you.</p>
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		<title>By: balharbour</title>
		<link>http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142&#038;cpage=1#comment-1617</link>
		<dc:creator>balharbour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 00:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142#comment-1617</guid>
		<description>Great article Ed. I was wondering if the velocity would be high enough with your load to seat your hollow base bullet reversed and function? I suppose that the bullet would have to be pure lead to open up (if in fact it would open up at all).

Have you ever worked up any cat sneeze loads for the .44 Special or Magnum? I have a Marlin M94 that could certainly benefit from a quieter loading. Currently have been shooting 200 and 240 hard cast bullets from Lee.

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article Ed. I was wondering if the velocity would be high enough with your load to seat your hollow base bullet reversed and function? I suppose that the bullet would have to be pure lead to open up (if in fact it would open up at all).</p>
<p>Have you ever worked up any cat sneeze loads for the .44 Special or Magnum? I have a Marlin M94 that could certainly benefit from a quieter loading. Currently have been shooting 200 and 240 hard cast bullets from Lee.</p>
<p>Steve</p>
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